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Oh squee, why have you forsaken me?

Well, it was fun while it lasted. Le Sigh.

I was really enjoying this one as I don`t mind talk, meta-physical debate and then...the ending happened. Yuck. The episode loses major points for this. It was totally unearned and preachy.

Dean`s position on faith, his reasoning, absolutely made sense for the character. Then BOOM, one small scene out of "Final Destination" happens and he comes into faith. Really? Really? Are you kidding me here? Totally out of left field and OUT. OF. CHARACTER.

Not to mention preachy as hell since apparently we can`t have a TV hero with a legitimate non-belief. The eleventh commandment, huh? "Thou shalt not disbelief"
You know, I AM Christian, protestant to be precise but that kind of thing just bugs. People do not belief in God and that`s okay. Leave them alone. They are FINE. They don`t need to see the light. Their existances are not empty and meaningless.

But that`s exactly how it felt: "See Dean, see now the error of your ways and start to come back to the flock."
I really don`t care about the producers stand on religion and I shouldn`t have to. Damnit. I really felt the "embrace Jesus" thing stuffed down my throat there at the end.

If Dean had said it to make Sam feel better, okay, but it was written and delivered as sincere and genuine. Complete with the cheesy "God`s will" line. Gah. Stupid, stupid end scene. I`m deeply, deeply disappointed in Sera Gamble.


Well, up until that point the episode was going rather well. Sam`s sudden revelation about his faith came a bit out of left field for me but I can still make it work within the character I know.

The brothers did have some good, interesting discussion on the subject of faith. Dean`s admission about Mary so totally made sense and made me hurt for the character. Sam in his current grasping at everything mode also made sense to latch onto the belief of a benign force.

I loved the Priest telling them about Angels as warriors of light. Total parallel to the boys and Dean is SO archangel Michael. :)

I did feel for Sam there in his disillusionment at the end. He clearly doesn`t have a faith like Layla`s. He DOES need the miracles to happen because he is terrified. Again that the fear is irrational I don`t mind.
Interesting though that I believe he was ready and willing to kill in the name of God. Wow. Quite a u-turn from his former stand on killing humans.

What was up with the flask? I felt it was pointless.

The humorous bits were nice. Sam is such a prissy stick in the mud about the vibrating bed. :) Spongebob. Hee. I loved Dean`s snarky comments thoughout.

Also Dean gets another civilian rescue. Has been a while and I enjoyed it.


If not for the stupid end with Dean`s insta-faith it would have been a lovely episode. Sigh.


So time for another round of project smackdown:

So far in Group A - episodes 2-5 as ImtoD is out of running for fairness - "Everybody loves a clown" won by a slight margin

Group B - eps 6 - 9 - : "Crossroad Blues"

Now Group C: Winner: 1. Nightshifter

2. Playthings
3. Houses of the Holy
4. Hunted

Winners of each category will go to the mat before the Season Finale. :)

Comments

( 20 have dazzled me — Dazzle me )
legoline
Feb. 2nd, 2007 01:14 pm (UTC)
YES! *triumphs* I KNEW you'd hate this episode! I rule! *laughs*

he comes into faith

He doesn't. He considers the possibilty that there MIGHT be God, while Sam comes to realise there might NOT be a God. I loved it.
astri13
Feb. 2nd, 2007 01:21 pm (UTC)
YES! *triumphs* I KNEW you'd hate this episode! I rule! *laughs*

If that stupid "God`s will" thing had never happened, I WOULD have loved it. Sniff.

He doesn't. He considers the possibilty that there MIGHT be God,

And that was fully, wholly unearned by the episode. Just because of the stupid pipe of doom? That made him question himself? Didn`t believe it one bit.
More, a lot more needed to happen so that Dean`s sudden "maybe" would have made sense to me.
legoline
Feb. 2nd, 2007 01:23 pm (UTC)
And that was fully, wholly unearned by the episode. Just because of the stupid pipe of doom? That made him question himself? Didn`t believe it one bit.


I guess you're more of a cynic than I am. Seriously, I LIKED that. Jensen's acting was so brilliant there because it was so obvious Dean couldn't really believe that - it was great.

Of course, everyone else on your flist will agree with you and I'l bethe idiot defending the episode here, as always :-)
lachli
Feb. 2nd, 2007 05:13 pm (UTC)
Of course, everyone else on your flist will agree with you and I'l bethe idiot defending the episode here, as always :-)

*g* no, I'm with you on this one, I thought it was a lovely episode and I found Dean's questioning of a possibility of God at the end perfectly fitting. I explain it more in my reply to the original post, but I was more than happy with it and pleased for Dean to suddenly consider that there may be something else that's on their, and more importantly his, side.
legoline
Feb. 3rd, 2007 09:16 am (UTC)
I was more than happy with it and pleased for Dean to suddenly consider that there may be something else that's on their, and more importantly his, side.


Whee! Someone liked the ep, too!

Yes, exactly. I don't think he considered actually God's existence, but more that there's some good after all, you know?
lachli
Feb. 6th, 2007 10:05 am (UTC)
Yes, I saw it more as him considering that there's something good out there on their side, some kind of divine justice at work. Something on the side of good to counter all the evil that they see and deal with. What I did find interesting when I rewatched it was the description of Michael, the angel, the Priest was literally describing Dean. I'm beginning to wonder if this is where Dean is going to fit into the mytharc and find his place, Roy said something along the lines of Dean having a very important job to do when he looked into his heart, or something like that *g*. I don't think his role is confined to protecting Sammy, maybe there's some sort of Cosmic Good that's going to have Dean on it's side, whilst Sam's on the side of Old Yellow Eyes.
legoline
Feb. 6th, 2007 09:01 pm (UTC)
the description of Michael, the angel, the Priest was literally describing Dean.

I noticed that, too - it was awesome. And I find your theory interesting, I *do* believe there's more to Dean than just being Sam's guardian.
lachli
Feb. 2nd, 2007 05:10 pm (UTC)
Oh I loved the ep so much and I never saw it as Dean discovering faith and a belief in God, but that he suddenly saw it as a possiblity. It's obviously on his mind because of the case they're working and he must have given it some thought, so when something tangible happens he does start to consider it being God's will. If he'd have turned round and made declarations of Faith and wanting to go find the next Church to start praying in I'd have been a bit more worried, but I thought it fitted in nicely with the season so far.

Dean's been up against it all season, he's got nobody left to turn to and the burden has been enormous. How lovely for him to even be able to consider that there might be some greater good out there on his side.

*sigh* I always end up just wanting to hug him though, just make everything better.
astri13
Feb. 2nd, 2007 05:29 pm (UTC)
Dean's been up against it all season, he's got nobody left to turn to and the burden has been enormous. How lovely for him to even be able to consider that there might be some greater good out there on his side.

While it would be nice for him to gain some hope I just didn`t feel it. When he expressed his belief or non-belief in the church earlier I felt it. It made sense to me for the character. Then the pipe things happens and he entertains the possibility of it maybe being god`s will after all.
This one isolated pipe thing which happens in RL too is enough evidence for him to question. He lost me there, big time. Or the writing did. And subsequently the whole episode did.

I just would have liked it more if they had him stood by his convictions at the end of the episode and left it at that. It was nothing wrong with how he felt and he just seemed so wobbly if he wavers so easily.

Or if only they had spared him to actual say the cheesy line of "god`s will". If he had kept it less tangible, more vague or delivered the line more ambigiously I may have liked it more. As it stands I full on cringed.

I wished I could join in the squee but the episode which I otherwise found to be lovely ends on a sour note for me. Just not feeling it. :(

*sigh* I always end up just wanting to hug him though, just make everything better.

That goes without saying. :)
lachli
Feb. 6th, 2007 10:08 am (UTC)
I think they were trying to enlarge on Dean saying earlier in the episode that he believes in what he can see. So they gave him something he could physically see and had him consider what it might mean. Like a lot of the SPN writing it wasn't very subtle *g*. I saw it more as him considering that there is some kind of divine justice out there rather than God per se.
astri13
Feb. 6th, 2007 11:34 am (UTC)
I saw it more as him considering that there is some kind of divine justice out there rather than God per se.

And ultimately I was very happy that they didn`t make it out to be "God", at least not definitely. Because God speaks to us in murders? The third guy had - as per Sam not done anything - than he attempted rape and it warranted insta-death. No chance of redemption? No mercy? Just like that. And people like Max`s family and the Benders get free tickets for years.

I don`t believe ultimately that would be a God Sam or Dean would want. It`s definitely one I don`t want. The older priest was right, it was the wrong way and it wasn`t the Christian God he believed in.

Sam fears he is gonna be evil, who says he won`t get his very own pipe of doom instead of help. Who says Dean won`t be judged somewhere down the line. It`s nice and all to think you are among the protected and guided but I wouldn`t necessarily infer it with the vengeful Old Testamantarian God we got here and it wouldn`t be someone I`d be comfortable having in my corner. In fact I thought it wasn`t much differently than what Gordon believed and he was misguided at best, a vilain at worst.
lachli
Feb. 6th, 2007 12:05 pm (UTC)
In fact I thought it wasn`t much differently than what Gordon believed and he was misguided at best, a vilain at worst.

That's an interesting comparison and a very apt one. It's the same moral dilemma that shows have loved to give us over the years, I still remember the Doctor Who scene where he can prevent the Daleks from ever having existed. Ultimately he doesn't do it because he knows that it's wrong and that whilst they have caused murder and mayhem all over the Universe there has still been good come from them. As he said then "Have I the right?" and no he didn't. Neither did Gordon or the Priest.

What I didn't understand was Sam's sudden willingness to go and kill that guy when he really didn't know what he had done or was about to do or whether he really had done it. I'd have liked to have seen him at least fight against the compulsion to go and kill without cause.
astri13
Feb. 6th, 2007 12:33 pm (UTC)
What I didn't understand was Sam's sudden willingness to go and kill that guy when he really didn't know what he had done or was about to do or whether he really had done it. I'd have liked to have seen him at least fight against the compulsion to go and kill without cause.

It was a bit weird because it went against everything Sam had ever argued and the going off and killing someone who hadn`t done anything yet was pretty much exactly Gordon`s reasoning. I found it apt that Dean touched on that with saying: "Hey, why don`t I stop you then."
It proved to me how very flaily and irrational Sam was becoming in his fear.

Otoh he later said he wouldn`t kill the guy but stop him yet when Dean asked him to clarify Sam didn`t or couldn`t. I was under the impression that the Priest/Angel gave these people the kill-order, maybe imbued them with some "holy mission feeling". The drunk guy looked like an automaton doing it.

So did Sam not get the explicit "Kill him" or didn`t the other people and just came up with this solution by themselves? Which I don`t believe because knife in the heart is pretty specific. Which leads me to think that that is exactly what Sam was told. And what he would have done if Dean hadn`t tricked him.

And the end result? Sam probably would have felt guilty that he killed another human (something he seems very hard to avoid and apparently believes is his downfall aka "Simon Said") and felt that much closer to evil now. He seemed to miss the holy sparkle of "I did the right thing" the hooker in the hospital had.
So yeah, his "redemption" would have probably been the very thing he wanted to avoid in the end. Thus as painful as his disappointment was, he got lucky.
legoline
Feb. 3rd, 2007 09:19 am (UTC)
Oh I loved the ep so much and I never saw it as Dean discovering faith and a belief in God, but that he suddenly saw it as a possiblity. It's obviously on his mind because of the case they're working and he must have given it some thought, so when something tangible happens he does start to consider it being God's will. If he'd have turned round and made declarations of Faith and wanting to go find the next Church to start praying in I'd have been a bit more worried, but I thought it fitted in nicely with the season so far.


Thank you. That's EXACTLY what I was trying to say myself :-p (Only you did it way better than I did :-p )

(ALSO...Torchwood OMG ._) )
lachli
Feb. 6th, 2007 10:02 am (UTC)
LOL! Thank you, I think a lot of people saw it as a betrayal of who Dean really is, but I just saw it as a good example of him being open minded and from what he said earlier in the ep, he needs to see something to make him believe in it. He saw something and it got him wondering.

Heh, Torchwood, rocks my world. I just adore it and John Barrowman. It's wrong in so many ways and you can pick holes in it until the cows come home, but I think it's amazing. I'm just counting the days until Doctor Who starts again because we're getting Captain Jack back in the Tardis where he belongs *sigh*. That look on his face at the end of Torchwood was just stunning, I found Johns acting through the show really interesting to watch, by the end of the series it was so much more subtle and nuanced than it was at the beginning. I think he really became a television actor instead of a stage actor.
legoline
Feb. 6th, 2007 09:03 pm (UTC)
he needs to see something to make him believe in it. He saw something and it got him wondering.


Exactly.

True about Rorchwood - it definitely has its flaws but it's still so, so good :-) And I think you might be right about John's acting there - oh, by the end of the finale with Owen I was actually sobbing. Aaaaw they break my heart.
andromakhe001
Feb. 2nd, 2007 10:57 pm (UTC)
Astri I completely agree. ::hugs:: It's nice to have you back. ;)

I felt, on behalf of Dean's character, that whole storyline felt very contrived. Forcing the character into a box he shouldn't have been put in.

Insta-Dawn is one thing, it's just a silly plot thing but Insta-Faith is character and that's not something so easily fixed. It was very unearned. More importantly unnecessary because of this " People do not belief in God and that`s okay. Leave them alone. They are FINE. They don`t need to see the light. Their existances are not empty and meaningless."

And I feel like that is exactly what they are suggesting. Dean's got it tough, he needs himself a higher power to believe in and all it takes is one lucky bounce by a pole to do it. Not even allowing him the strength of his convictions. It disrespects the depth and reasoning behind beliefs and behavior.
astri13
Feb. 2nd, 2007 11:12 pm (UTC)
It's nice to have you back. ;)

I guess it was too good to be true these last two eps? *g* One might think I enjoy finding something to bitch about when sadly I want nothing more than to squee. They just don`t want to leave these poor characters alone long enough to do so.

And the episode started really well, I thought. If there had never been a "maybe God`s will" line by Dean it would have claimed at least second place in my little poll.

It disrespects the depth and reasoning behind beliefs and behavior.

That was what bugged me as well. Even if his admission at the end was just a maybe, it made no sense and him actually voicing "God`s will" is a pretty big turnaround from his previous point of view.

And I`m losing faith too at the moment, what`s happening in a world where Raelle Tucker and Sera Gamble disappoint me while Matt Witten and Ben Edlund make me squee-y about their eps? Now that`s a cause for doubt and a shaken belief. :)
aizjanika
Feb. 3rd, 2007 09:13 am (UTC)
What was up with the flask? I felt it was pointless.

Yeah... I don't know. It seemed like it was there for a reason, but I couldn't figure out what that reason was.

LOL What is project smackdown? *g* I'm not sure I understand the rules. :-)

Damnit. I really felt the "embrace Jesus" thing stuffed down my throat there at the end.

I am extremely hypersenstitive to this kind of thing because of where I live (where everyone assumes you are Christian even if you wear a devil-worship t-shirt) and because I am not a Christian. I detest being preached at or preached to when it's not my choice. There's nothing I hate more, too, than TV shows seemingly pandering to the Christians in this country for one reason or another. I absolutely hate it.

But...I didn't get that in this episode. *g*

That's okay. I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that it's interesting that we come from different perspectives. :-) Maybe I just didn't want to believe it. I have to admit that the phrase "God's will" bugged me a bit both times it was used, but I let it go. *g*

I loved that they even took a chance and said something about it rather than ignoring it. I also loved pretty much all the same things that you did. :-)
astri13
Feb. 3rd, 2007 01:49 pm (UTC)
LOL What is project smackdown? *g* I'm not sure I understand the rules. :-)

It`s the epitome of my geekness - so far. *g*

Basically I take all the episodes and compare them to each other. Since the Season Opener and Finale always tend to be rather special, bombastic episodes I take them out of running. That leaves 20 episodes in the Season which I break down in group of fours, 2-5, 6-9, 10-13 etc.

Then I rank them according to how much I liked them, like "Nightshifter" was the best for me in the last four, and at the end of the Season the winners of each group will contest against each other. Thus I will figure out which episode really stood out for me in the Season, baring the Premiere and the Finale.

So yeah, geek-heaven. :)

I have to admit that the phrase "God's will" bugged me a bit both times it was used, but I let it go. *g*

I wish I could but it was fifty feet over the line for me. If they had just let Jensen convey wordlessly that he was shaken or let him phrase it differently, perhaps "maybe there is something out there" or heck, let him play it as if he clearly repeated Sam`s words earlier to comfort Sam, I could have accepted it.

The thing is just with everything Dean has been through in his life he has a truckload on the minus side of faith, yet the pipe of doom comes along and that changes everything? That actually makes Dean Winchester voice "God`s will."

Also, the thing is they can`t really go back from that, i.e. he can`t just be back to his "this is crap"-stance. Otherwise that doesn`t exactly speak to the strenght of his convictions. "Good forces didn`t save my family, I shun them" "But wait there was a weird car accident with a steel pipe, maybe there are good forces after all." "No, I take that back. There are none" Until the next little weird thing comes along. Urgh. Therefore the true disbeliever position is either cancelled out or so weak in character everything can shake it.
( 20 have dazzled me — Dazzle me )