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It has begun...

Yup, it's THAT time again. *g*

So, what did I think of


All in all, not as good as IMTOD or Lazarus but way more solid than Mag7. I think it was pretty heavy on plot because it had to establish this year's arc and less so on characterization.

- The "escape" from the comment as well as Castiel's miraculous recovery and 11th hour save? Yes, those were classic deus ex machinas. It's the very definition of them but I am willing to swallow those every now and then for the sake of plot.

- Also, I do have a fondness for people watching cartoons on planes. Rollerbots!!! (Sorry, inside joke) And the "devil" telling Yosemite Sam he could use a guy like him - kind of less on the nose meta so I like it.

- the "fangirl" - em, liked the Galaxy Quest reference but it was maybe a bit too on the nose meta. Not that I felt mocked through her all that much because quite frankly? I would have had the opposite reaction she had. :-p

- Meg - I liked the new actress. And for some reason the kiss was hilarious to me.

But what about the "you are a slow, dim, dumb pain in the ass"? Did she swallow a thesaurus? That were three different words with exactly the same meaning. I mean, she didn't say to Sam "hello, you tall, big, huge guy" either. I'm sorry but when people talk fuzzy like that, it irks me somehow. I wouldn't have blinked if she had said something like "hey there, you always were a dumb, annoying bastard" or something like this. At least that's different insults in the same sentence.

- Lucifer/Nick - heh, old Nick. *g*

The way Lucifer tortured this man was chillingly cruel and eased my fears about all this "Lucifer is that nice guy" interview talk. He is manipulative and faux-empathetic and the opposite of Zach's brute force approach but no less evil. "I don't lie" - a) convincing, dude because you can't lie about not lying and b) it served you to tell the truth here to appear sympathetic.

Also "God wrong you, I can give you revenge." Hilarious, Lucy, when you just stated how mean God was to put these pathetic humans over you. You don't care if God wrongs any of us, you are bitter and angry that God wronged YOU and YOU want revenge on him. Threw a tantrum about it once and now at it again. (I swear I'm not crazy even though I directly address fictional devils in a TV show :)

That the guy ultimately let him in, I thought was a parallel to Season 4 with Ruby and what the angels want now. Reasons may be good and understandable but if you are going against what you know deep down is wrong, then the results won't be pretty. As such, I don't really have sympathy for the devil.

- Bobby

That he was possessed - well, not all that surprising about the huge teasing JB and EK did on that front. I liked the fact that he fought down possession as not to harm Dean but I still have huge, huge issues with what he said in the Finale to Dean
because I just can't identify with the underlying message of that. At all. Forget everything on how Dean of all people knows what it is like to sacrifice for family and knows very well how to take epic crap from them but "family is SUPPOSED to make you miserable"
and when you remove yourself from that situation or even consider that you are whiny and cowardly? Sounds more like slavery and less like family to me.

And the fact that he didn't explain or apologize for that particular rant makes me think he believes that. Which means, I don't think he is a good person to be around Dean and his issues. I waited four painstakingly long years to get some growth away
from the intense family mindset on Dean's part and I'll be damned if I watch it get taken back again. Sorry but nope.

Also, at least Bobby should apply that equal opportunity. I liked that he stated that he wouldn't cut out Sam and that was surely something Sam needed to hear but how about "yeah, it was goddamn stupid and I'm helluva angry but I wouldn't throw you out of my life over it"? You don't do people any favours by patting them on the head with an immediate "it's all forgiven". And you don't do recovering addicts any favours by that kind of enabling. You make it harder for them to resist because they know consequences will be less severe.

- Castiel

YAY. power-upgrade. At least as far as fighting goes. Sad to see so little of him but I guess they couldn't cram more into it.

- Sam

He was very subdued in the episode, very apologetic and in kicked puppy mod and I did feel for him. He tried. He tried to own up to what he did, he tried to tell the truth - Ruby and the hex bags - he tried talking. And it is all a good start. But I also don't grant insta-forgiveness because of it. Last Season the character was more interesting to me than he had been in a long time but that didn't mean I agreed with him. In fact, I had MUCHO issues with him, just like way back when with Dean's deal. One took actually going to hell again before we could "make up". And I assume it will take also a lot of work here.

- Dean

Loved his neverending slew of insults at Zach who btw is finally a character I love to hate. He is such an oily bastard. :)
Loved him standing firm to the angels' threats. You know, guys, if you hadn't come out with your little "lalala, surprise, we want the apokalypse too" spiel at the 11th hour, Dean might not distrust you so much.

And most of all, loved him being honest in that last scene. Nothing in their relationship would have gotten better if he had tried to ignore it or continue to pretend or lied about forgiving when he clearly didn't. It would be like painting a house that is falling apart on the inside. It looks nice but the foundation doesn't hold.

Also, I thought it was necessary because I believe they miscommunicated. Sam was apologetic for the seal-breaking and seemed to assume that Dean was equally angry about it but Dean specified that it was solely about their relationship. THAT is a ground to fix things. You can't work on your issues if both parties aren't on the same page as to what those issues are.

I also liked that he didn't offer false hopes. Somehow I really dislike that. "Oh, I'm sure I'll forgive you in time" when the person isn't sure they can. Then don't SAY it to me, asshat, and string me along.

Nevertheless, with the way the scene played out, things look far less grim to me - the outside observer than they might be to the people at the center of it. Now I have hope for an adult relationship. Not like that :-p


Lets see where we go from here...

Comments

( 19 have dazzled me — Dazzle me )
xkatjafx
Sep. 12th, 2009 03:37 pm (UTC)
Rollerbots!!!

urgh, I just had successfully suppressed the talking anal beads. (It's Rollbots, btw.)

And most of all, loved him being honest in that last scene. Nothing in their relationship would have gotten better if he had tried to ignore it or continue to pretend or lied about forgiving when he clearly didn't.

Really? It was one of the few times when I really wanted to kick Dean's ass.
Because whatever happened between him and Sam and resorted into the apocalypse of all things, was without a doubt a two way street. It's not like he really tried to talk to Sam - besides calling him Monster, making everything even worse. And changing your mind last minute when you can't do anything anymore is no reason to do the "I'm better than you and it's all your fault" spiel.
And how come they all forget that Dean started the apocalypse just as much when he decided to join Team Torture?
astri13
Sep. 12th, 2009 04:19 pm (UTC)
Because whatever happened between him and Sam and resorted into the apocalypse of all things, was without a doubt a two way street. It's not like he really tried to talk to Sam - besides calling him Monster, making everything even worse.

I'm not saying he handled everything perfectly last Season - but then, I wouldn't expect him to do it under the best of circumstances, let alone after dealing with hell. And he got a hell of lot less emotional support than I expected.

In his place I would have sooner bitten of my own tongue and swallowed it to make that apology call in the Finale to be honest.

And I don't deny that I wanted to kick Sam multiple times in Season 4. Some of his characteristics that are absolutely my least favourite ones came out there. So, I'm probably harsh with him. I felt the same way when Dean made that stupid deal.

Maybe I'm like Dean there because not about forgiving and forgetting readily either just because someone makes big sad eyes and says "sorry". That takes time. Trust takes time.

It's not like he really tried to talk to Sam - besides calling him Monster, making everything even worse.

Thing is, I think he did try here and there. The Ruby-backstory? He made an effort. Obviously it should have been more but there we are back with the hell stuff. And obviously he shouldn't have used the trigger word "monster" but his point to me was that Sam had just told him "it wasn't Ruby or the blood, it was all my decisions, accept that" and Dean felt then this made his actions monstrous.

With their positions there, they couldn't have talked it out logically and there also wasn't the possibility for compromise. I would have screamed had Dean tucked his tail in and gone with Sam and Ruby against his judgement.

And how come they all forget that Dean started the apocalypse just as much when he decided to join Team Torture?

But that wasn't his point there. He clearly said re: apokalypse that "WE made a mess, WE clean it up" so I don't think he blames Sam for that anyway. But I got the impression that Sam was only focused on that so he needed to know that nope, on Dean's side it was about putting full trust into Ruby the amazing enabler, the belittling, the choking etc.

Nor does anybody seem to be forgetting it IMO. Zach made a point to spread the blame around, Bobby was possessed when he said it - and yes, I'm also not up to defending people I'm pissed with - and the promo for the next week had a line that called both on it.

So, in the end I felt the speech was entirely justified. And who is to say Sam won't be making a speech of his own in the coming episodes on how he feels?
legoline
Sep. 12th, 2009 04:31 pm (UTC)
And who is to say Sam won't be making a speech of his own in the coming episodes on how he feels?

Sadly, I'm about 99,9% sure that there WILL be a speech from Sam because that is all we've ever gotten in the past two seasons. Speech. Speech. Speech and...some more speeches.
astri13
Sep. 12th, 2009 04:47 pm (UTC)
Not that I really wanted a speech per se but I want them to get everything off their chests already.

And if on Sam's part it is "I wanted you to be there for me last year" or "I always kinda felt you are pathetic" or "I haven't forgive you for that deal" or whatever, then so be it. It's nothing I haven't inferred and if they say it all just once they can actually, finally decide what they want from each other and their relationship and see if it fits for both.

If I have to see one more episode where it takes a supernatural thing to be really honest, I will scream.

Normally, I wouldn't advise that in a relationship but this one can't apparently work without it.
xkatjafx
Sep. 13th, 2009 04:51 pm (UTC)
And he got a hell of lot less emotional support than I expected.

So did Sam *g*

In his place I would have sooner bitten of my own tongue and swallowed it to make that apology call in the Finale to be honest.

If he didn't, I think Dean and me would have broken up. Honestly, the whole "Don't come back" thing was unforgivable. It's the one thing he should not had said under *any* circumstances. This ranks so much higher on my shit list than what Sam did. Because Sam at least meant to do good - he just didn't know any better.

Maybe I'm like Dean there because not about forgiving and forgetting readily either just because someone makes big sad eyes and says "sorry". That takes time. Trust takes time.

Well, for me there is nothing to forgive in the first place. It's not like Sam wanted to bring on the apocalypse. He just got dealt another shitty set of cards. Again.

Anyway, when will *Castiel* apologize for letting Sam out? *g* In the end he brought on the apocalypse just as much...

Thing is, I think he did try here and there. The Ruby-backstory? He made an effort.

So did Sam.

So, in the end I felt the speech was entirely justified. And who is to say Sam won't be making a speech of his own in the coming episodes on how he feels?

I'm not waiting for Sam to say how he feels, I'm waiting for Dean to say Sam's forgiven *g* The problem is that they both still are totally wrapped up on their own personal problems, which is what brought on the apocalypse in the first place. It's time to take step back and think about what the other needs.
astri13
Sep. 13th, 2009 06:07 pm (UTC)
So did Sam *g*

Well, what would he have done if he got a catatonic wreck back after hell as it would have been realistic? He couldn't have expected any emotional support than either.

He also chose to cut himself off from Bobby in the immediate aftermath of Dean's death.

If he didn't, I think Dean and me would have broken up. Honestly, the whole "Don't come back" thing was unforgivable. It's the one thing he should not had said under *any* circumstances. This ranks so much higher on my shit list than what Sam did.

Higher than the choking? Because I found that pretty unforgiveable personally. In Dean's place I would not have said "IF you go out that door", I would have said "go and never come back" and seriously meant it.

Well, for me there is nothing to forgive in the first place.

For me there is and then some. I just don't see Sam as just a victim. He chose to get in bed with Ruby, both literally and metaphorically. He chose to drink the demon blood. He chose to succumb to his flaws. And I do not blame this on the deal and "being left alone" and all that. I hold Dean 100 % responsible for his deal and Sam 100 % responsible for his actions afterwards. I don't even blame sucky John for anything there and that is a first for me. *g*

And again, I do not think Dean's issue is about the apokalypse at all. It is about what went down in their personal relationship. And I see a whole lot of trust lost there.

I'm not waiting for Sam to say how he feels, I'm waiting for Dean to say Sam's forgiven *g*

I'm sure he will. But not only do I perfectly understand why he can't right now but I would have hated if he did. Another "everything is fine" number like at the end of Asylum or the Siren one.

Because obviously the issues festered even more. And I think the issues they had with each other last Season go in some way all the way back to Season 1. Because they never ever resolved them.

The problem is that they both still are totally wrapped up on their own personal problems, which is what brought on the apocalypse in the first place. It's time to take step back and think about what the other needs.

I kinda think the opposite. If they don't figure out some things for themselves already before they come together again. Or we'll get rinse, repeat.

Nor do I want to see Dean in particularly back in "what does my family need" mode. After four years and various screams of "grow a goddamn pair already" that would be the last thing I want now.
xkatjafx
Sep. 14th, 2009 06:28 pm (UTC)
Higher than the choking? Because I found that pretty unforgiveable personally.

Do I think it was right thing to do? No way. But then Dean called him a monster, so of course Sam had to prove him right. After all he believes it, too.

In Dean's place I would not have said "IF you go out that door", I would have said "go and never come back" and seriously meant it.

No wonder you've been Dean fan of the week *g*
Honestly, throwing John's words in his face is probably the worst thing he could have done to him. I'm not really sure what exactly is able to top being thrown out of the family. Again.

He chose to get in bed with Ruby, both literally and metaphorically. He chose to drink the demon blood. He chose to succumb to his flaws.

Yes, he chose to do so. *For Dean*. Which is the part Dean didn't care to ask about. And in the end it could have just as well saved the world.

I kinda think the opposite. If they don't figure out some things for themselves already before they come together again. Or we'll get rinse, repeat.

I don't think they can ever get back to S1. They've both grown up since them. But obviously they have to find some sort of compromise between S1 and S4. After all that's what a relationship is all about ; )
astri13
Sep. 14th, 2009 07:02 pm (UTC)
Do I think it was right thing to do? No way. But then Dean called him a monster, so of course Sam had to prove him right. After all he believes it, too.

I don't see name-calling as sufficient provocation for that, no matter how bad.

It is also something I believe Sam will work on because it was an issue in ASS and it was how Ruby-Lilith tag-teamed him. Ruby buttered him up and Lilith used his name-call triggers. As soon as Sam becomes more aware of that, it will be much less easier to manipulate him like that.

Honestly, throwing John's words in his face is probably the worst thing he could have done to him. I'm not really sure what exactly is able to top being thrown out of the family. Again.

I think the context is completely different. And if John had said it lying on the floor after being choked, I would give him points, too. Notwithstanding if you mean to throw someone out forever but I DO find it the most natural reaction in the world to tell someone who just tried to kill you to get the hell out and stay gone. If you still hold to that after the serious anger has gone by, different question but in the moment?

Maybe I can just relate to Dean so well right now because I would never forgive that. Now, I know I am a very unforgiving person, I hold grudges till kingdom come and when you cross certain lines with me, it's over. Family, friends, nevernind. So the fact that Dean is "just" mightily pissed right now is still mild to me. Did I mention I was seriously vengeful? *g*

Yes, he chose to do so. *For Dean*. Which is the part Dean didn't care to ask about.

There were also parts of it intermixed that didn't have to do with Dean. Like John thought he was doing it for Mary and it morphed more and more into his own obsession.

I think Sam wanted multiple things. Revenge for Dean, save the world, prove he was right and truly was stronger/smart/better, embrace his inner John and later get the next dose. All of it played a part in his gradual descent in Season 4. Cliched as it might sound but I peg him for one of those people who lives in schizophrenic disharmony between an inferiority and a superiority complex, that is he is so afraid of the freakdom, he overshoots and thinks he has to be better than normal. That coupled with a younger sibling wanting to establish their own identiy from under the shadow of the older sibling and he is one seriously messed up cookie.

And in the end it could have just as well saved the world.

Hindsight is twenty-twenty and I don't blame him for breaking that seal. Stupidity with Ruby not counting but the actual act was an honest mistake. It would have happened as well - much more easily probably - if Dean and angels had never shown up and Sam had been alone with just Ruby's influence for that whole year.

However stuff in their relationship is on another page for me. And there, I hold him accountable. Dean, too, but I give him more of a pass after actual hell, no matter how lukewarm that hell PTSD was shown.

I don't think they can ever get back to S1. They've both grown up since them. But obviously they have to find some sort of compromise between S1 and S4.

I agree. And I think they are on the right track for that now. We have 21 more episodes and from what I'm thinking by 5 or 6 they will have mostly put that whole stuff behind themselves already to be back to mostly snarky brotherly banter.

But if they dealt with the relationship like with the drug rehab, I would have thrown a shoe. Insta-clean by deus ex machina. *headdesk*

I just thought I saw them showing each other more respect in that Season 5 Opener by being actually honest than in most of the show that came before.
xkatjafx
Sep. 15th, 2009 04:55 pm (UTC)
I don't see name-calling as sufficient provocation for that, no matter how bad.

Lol, but see, this was WAY beyond name-calling. And I guess the part where you and I differ is that for me emotional pain is way more severe than physical pain.
Sam didn't kill Dean, but what Dean said will hurt Sam for a long long time.

As soon as Sam becomes more aware of that, it will be much less easier to manipulate him like that.

I don't think he was not aware that they tried to manipulate him. He's not stupid. He just believed that the end justified the means. Which could have been the case - and then everything would have been *worth* it.

Notwithstanding if you mean to throw someone out forever but I DO find it the most natural reaction in the world to tell someone who just tried to kill you to get the hell out and stay gone.

And this is where we differ. Because no, nothing EVER is enough reason to say things like that to your brother. It's your *brother*. (And maybe you don't get it because you have no brother, I don't know.)

I hold grudges till kingdom come and when you cross certain lines with me, it's over.

*g* good to know. (And wow, that must suck. Because yeah, I can get fed up with things too, but I've learned that if you don't let them go, they hurt *you* so much more.)

Revenge for Dean, save the world, prove he was right and truly was stronger/smart/better, embrace his inner John and later get the next dose.

Sure it's a mix of things. But the underlying reason is that Sam is growing up and for once he wanted to be one carrying the baggage, so Dean didn't have to. About the stronger/smarter/better thing - I don't know, I don't really think that's what driving Sam. He would act a lot different if he were a competitive personality.

I peg him for one of those people who lives in schizophrenic disharmony between an inferiority and a superiority complex, that is he is so afraid of the freakdom, he overshoots and thinks he has to be better than normal.

mmm.. interesting idea. I just don't see it. If anyone is in disharmony, it's Dean. Sam is a lot more stable than Dean ever was.

That coupled with a younger sibling wanting to establish their own identiy from under the shadow of the older sibling and he is one seriously messed up cookie.

Considering Sam was the one who constantly rebelled - and Dean was the one who had no identity, this seems a bit strange. I think Sam figured out who he was a long time before Dean did.

Dean, too, but I give him more of a pass after actual hell, no matter how lukewarm that hell PTSD was shown.

lol, I'm not sure what is easier: Hell or going on when your brother is dead. It's probably a tie. (Where we come back to the emotional vs. physical pain thing ; )
astri13
Sep. 15th, 2009 06:08 pm (UTC)
Sam didn't kill Dean, but what Dean said will hurt Sam for a long long time.

And I'm sure the fact that Sam did that caused Dean emotional pain too. So, in that vein, I think hurt was definitely caused on both sides.

I don't think he was not aware that they tried to manipulate him. He's not stupid. He just believed that the end justified the means.

I believe he did trust Ruby. He might have thought he did not but he was completely blindsided by her betrayal.

Because no, nothing EVER is enough reason to say things like that to your brother. It's your *brother*. (And maybe you don't get it because you have no brother, I don't know.)

I know I must seem very harsh but there are things I would forgive, not even my mother.

*g* good to know. And wow, that must suck. Because yeah, I can get fed up with things too, but I've learned that if you don't let them go, they hurt *you* so much more.

You know, I'm a scorpio. *g* But, seriously, this part of their supposed character traits fits with me. I won't play "punshiment" games but I'm a typical scorpio in that my feelings of anger don't abate for so long, they will sustain me.

But the underlying reason is that Sam is growing up and for once he wanted to be one carrying the baggage, so Dean didn't have to. About the stronger/smarter/better thing - I don't know, I don't really think that's what driving Sam. He would act a lot different if he were a competitive personality.

But these issues have come up before, in Asylum, in Bedtime Stories - the CD obviously struck some chord - and in little things. So they are there for me.

And he liked feeling powerful in Season 4. In a way he liked establishing himself as strong in relation to Dean = weak. His inner Mary told him as much. It wasn't the whole of it but it was one justification for allowing himself to go on doing what he did.

Also, I think the demon blood did affect him in one way, the more he took the more "demon-like" his line of thinking became. The Siren-thing, the disdain not for torturing but for caring and feeling badly about it, the feeling of superiority to someone human who was thus weak? Not something I have not seen from demons before. Which, I could say, was an outward influence but it's not unlike alcoholics developing a mean streak when they are drunk.

And I have always seen Sam and John similar in their stressor response.

If anyone is in disharmony, it's Dean. Sam is a lot more stable than Dean ever was.

When the show started, yes. In the last few years, I think they are quite even in their screwed-up-ness. Just that Dean made some baby steps up recently whereas Sam went from his much healthier position down.

Considering Sam was the one who constantly rebelled - and Dean was the one who had no identity, this seems a bit strange. I think Sam figured out who he was a long time before Dean did.

I wouldn't say Dean had no identity at all, just a screwed-up one. :D He defined himself solely through family and job and how good he could serve them or his idea of them. That is something, it is just not good.

And Sam wouldn't have these issues to me with the "bossy", "I always followed you, trust me for once", "I'm not pathetic like you" if he deep down didn't feel like bothered by it.

I'm not sure what is easier: Hell or going on when your brother is dead. It's probably a tie. (Where we come back to the emotional vs. physical pain thing ; )

Yeah because it is hell no contest for me. Comparing being tortured like Dean described for a prolongued time - admittedly impossible because you'd die soon, at the least be droven stark mad - and emotional anguish, I'd pick the emotional anguish in a heartbeat. Because you get breathers. Sam went to the movies, he listened to music, he shared pizza and sex with Ruby. It also gets better with time.

I also believe that any person who made such a deal - me for a loved one - and is put on that rack will in little time be screaming to reverse it and beg to be released, readily agreeing to let that other person die again if only the pain stops. Because physical pain like this would come with a severe psychological strain as well.
i_am_schizo
Sep. 16th, 2009 04:32 am (UTC)
Yo, chiming in here yet again, just because... *g*

And I'm sure the fact that Sam did that caused Dean emotional pain too. So, in that vein, I think hurt was definitely caused on both sides.

I agree. Apart from the fact that I think that most physical pain will also result in the person hurting emotionally, if someone you love seemingly or even for real tries to kill you, I believe you will feel a lot more than "mere" physical pain.


I know I must seem very harsh but there are things I would forgive, not even my mother.

Yeah, family doesn't always resemble that ideal image of family one might have in mind. I bet there are a whole lot of people out there that wouldn't hesitate for even a second to tell their siblings or parents to fuck the hell off for good already! Sometimes family means fuck all because being related to one another doesn't necessarily mean you get along with this person even one bit. I'm afraid there are enough examples of that out there.


Didn't Sam accuse Dean of being weak in that Siren episode? Didn't Sam say that Dean's weak while Sam himself is strong and that's why he'll do the job on his own because Dean's just useless, so to speak? I don't remember what both of them said in that ep exactly. But having been under the influence of the Siren or not, there was truth in what they said; they meant it.


Re Dean in hell, yeah, what you said about physical pain coming with a severe psychological strain because I doubt anyone can handle being tortured for long. You'll break down pretty quickly. Plus, in Dean's case he did torture souls himself in the end, which, well, hello emotional pain!

Both of them seem to be quite good at making the respective other hurt, physically and emotionally.

Hmm, I doubt I have a point here. Just wanted to ramble for a bit. o.O




astri13
Sep. 16th, 2009 05:46 pm (UTC)
Yeah, family doesn't always resemble that ideal image of family one might have in mind.

Agreed. Which is why I'm kinda creeped out by this "family over everything" message Kripke touts now in interviews, without the slightest disclaimer. Yo, Eric, you do know the fucked up shit that goes on in a lot of families, right?

If abused children or battered wifes for example can't tell their families to go to hell and never come back then I don't know who can.

Didn't Sam accuse Dean of being weak in that Siren episode? Didn't Sam say that Dean's weak while Sam himself is strong and that's why he'll do the job on his own because Dean's just useless, so to speak? I don't remember what both of them said in that ep exactly. But having been under the influence of the Siren or not, there was truth in what they said; they meant it.

Mostly yes. And yes, they also both meant it. I mean, it came up a couple times after that. Obviously they have issues there with each other which is why I'm happy they seem to have stopped with the denial.

I mean, if Dean has to wonder if everytime he wants to confess something not so great, Sam secretely files it away as "wow, what a loser" and Sam wonders the reverse only with freak, then they have a big problem. If you don't think the other person respects you, then the relationship is pretty whacked to me. Personally, I can not have one without respect.

Both of them seem to be quite good at making the respective other hurt, physically and emotionally.

Certainly. Which is the biggest sign that through everything they do still love each other. If they were indifferent, it really wouldn't hurt that much.

Hmm, I doubt I have a point here. Just wanted to ramble for a bit. o.O

Hehe, that's okay. :)
i_am_schizo
Sep. 17th, 2009 04:26 pm (UTC)
Agreed. Which is why I'm kinda creeped out by this "family over everything" message Kripke touts now in interviews, without the slightest disclaimer. Yo, Eric, you do know the fucked up shit that goes on in a lot of families, right?

I think I've ranted about this when I first got hooked on SPN. What has drawn me to the show right from the start is this overwhelming and unconditional love they have for one another, but I think it's naive and outright stupid to proclaim that this kind of love is a given between family members because it sure as hell is not! Of course, love between family members can be strong and everlasting but it's just not a given. That's idealistic bullshit!

I mean, if Dean has to wonder if everytime he wants to confess something not so great, Sam secretely files it away as "wow, what a loser" and Sam wonders the reverse only with freak, then they have a big problem. If you don't think the other person respects you, then the relationship is pretty whacked to me. Personally, I can not have one without respect.

Oh my God, so much YES!!!!!!!!!!!! It probably sounds weird but respect has become immensely important to me only recently. I never really gave it much thought before. So yeah, any relationship without respect is fucked and I've never really thought of this in relation to Sam and Dean but the way you put it, I can totally see how this would fuck with them even more. I don't really think this is what the show wants to tell us but a lack of respect or Sam and Dean each believing that the respective other doesn't respect them anymore sure as hell results in not trusting each other anymore because without respect you cannot trust the other person to...hmm..."empathise with you" anymore. The Loser and the Freak and neither of them willing to see things from the other's perspective or to try to understand where the other is coming from.

And I babble, man, do I babble!! o.O

*lol*

If they were indifferent, it really wouldn't hurt that much.

Yep.
i_am_schizo
Sep. 14th, 2009 05:02 pm (UTC)
I'm kinda confused and unfortunately can't really remember Dean's exact words to Sam at the end of the episode. But is this really about who brought on the apocalypse? I kinda thought the one thing that Dean cannot forgive is Sam apparently trusting Ruby more than Dean; that Sam turned to her instead of asking Dean for help? I thought the issue was that Dean feels betrayed? And then there's probably also the whole thing with Sam trusting a demon at all? But I think that for Dean thinking that Sam didn't come to his big brother for help but rather turned to a stranger (someone who is NOT familly) and a demon at that is worse?

But hey, I have almost no recollection of S4 at all, so I don't really have much of an opinion in this case anyway.
astri13
Sep. 14th, 2009 05:11 pm (UTC)
I'm kinda confused and unfortunately can't really remember Dean's exact words to Sam at the end of the episode. But is this really about who brought on the apocalypse?

No, it was about what you said, not the apokalypse. With the apokalypse, there is really not much to say other than "dumm gelaufen". Though some level of stupidity could be argued. But that goes for both seal-breakings.

But I see what happened in their relationship last year as a completely separate issue from that. And I think Dean does too which is why he is so hurt and angry.

And seriously? Better than me because I would never, ever forgive someone choking me like that. Not in one million years.
i_am_schizo
Sep. 15th, 2009 03:46 am (UTC)
And seriously? Better than me because I would never, ever forgive someone choking me like that. Not in one million years.

Yeah, if something like this would happen in real life you'd call anyone completely mad who'd stick with a person that lost control like that.

But I see what happened in their relationship last year as a completely separate issue from that. And I think Dean does too which is why he is so hurt and angry.

Yeah, that's what I think, too. I guess for Dean it's a lot more personal than the freaking apocalypse. He feels like Sam hurt/betrayed him specifically and not just all of humankind by bringing on the apocalypse (which, yeah, not only Sam is to blame for...but that might be slightly beside the point anyway).
xkatjafx
Sep. 14th, 2009 06:16 pm (UTC)
that Sam turned to her instead of asking Dean for help? I thought the issue was that Dean feels betrayed?

= detail

they both still are totally wrapped up on their own personal problems, which is what brought on the apocalypse in the first place.

= general picture

; )
nachekana
Sep. 12th, 2009 05:01 pm (UTC)
Now I have hope for an adult relationship. Not like that :-p

LOL Well, my mind went there in 0.2 seconds flat. I'm officially doomed.

You can't work on your issues if both parties aren't on the same page as to what those issues are.

Yep. I think that what most people who criticize the scene forget is that Dean is not talking about the seal. It's bad, but it's done. He's all about the "choosing Ruby over him" issue and seeing how Dean really counted on Sam, it's more than understandable that he's pissed as hell. Though actually, he's not pissed, he's dissapointed and that's even better. Well, better because I love the angst. I can't wait to see where they're going to go from there, this is exactly what I wanted to happen at the beginning of this season.

she didn't say to Sam "hello, you tall, big, huge guy" either

I wish she had, now. It would have been a very dumb, dim line!

I liked that he stated that he wouldn't cut out Sam and that was surely something Sam needed to hear but how about "yeah, it was goddamn stupid and I'm helluva angry but I wouldn't throw you out of my life over it"?

I think he would have given him that speech if he hadn't been possessed (that totally took me by surprise, I'm very good at suppressing Jim's spoilery facebook status). But the whole possession incident obliged him to do damage control, I guess. Anyway, I can't concentrate on what happens on the screen when Bobby doesn't wear his hat. *shrugs*

All in all, I really loved the episode, as it gave me what I was waiting for: a fucked-up relationship for the boys, a couple of great villains (Lucy and Zach are simply great, and I'm pretty happy to see Meg back), and Castiel who finally grew a pair (it only took him one season). As you say: let's see where we go from here.
astri13
Sep. 12th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC)
Yep. I think that what most people who criticize the scene forget is that Dean is not talking about the seal. It's bad, but it's done. He's all about the "choosing Ruby over him" issue and seeing how Dean really counted on Sam, it's more than understandable that he's pissed as hell. Though actually, he's not pissed, he's dissapointed and that's even better. Well, better because I love the angst.

Yeah, and it is what I expected going in the Season. I don't know, I have seen so many comments that he needs to forgive Sam already and hug it out.

People, for us a summer went by but in show-time it is the immediate aftermath. And then their emotional arc for the whole Season will be what? An entire Season to split them apart but some lame insta-love in one episode? Seriously, that would have sucked and been totally unauthetic.

Anyway, I can't concentrate on what happens on the screen when Bobby doesn't wear his hat. *shrugs*

Yes, it's weird. :/
( 19 have dazzled me — Dazzle me )